The Dark side of Versant 2nd BTR

[Futaura]

Yes, sorry, the IBT cleaner. That said, the tech didn't bother replacing it this time, even though it is 100K over the 300K threshold. The tech installed yet more new software on our V180, which apparently may help with the 2nd BTR issue (heard that before though).

We tend to use Pro Design for uncoated too (actually, switched to Image Impact Plus, which is exactly the same paper, but in a different wrapper, which we can get cheaper), but as you say it is more expensive than silk/gloss. The 2nd BTR happens just as badly on 250gsm/300gsm Pro Design as on silk, we find.

I would recommend Silver Digital, but Xerox Colour Impressions Silk is pretty close to it anyway when it comes to 2nd BTR life. We've never tried Arctic Silk - I wonder if it is the same as another brand? I know Canon/OCE Top Coated Plus Silk was/is the same as Lumi Digital Silk up to 250gsm , for example. As I've said before, the 2nd BTR problem happens more quickly for us when running a lot of 250gsm or heavier stock - if we were to only run 150gsm silk, I don't think we'd have much of a problem. 

I think what Xerox need to sort out is why is it dumping toner over the 2nd BTR in the first place. The IBT cleaner should be cleaning off waste toner before it gets to the 2nd BTR, so why is toner still getting dumped on the roller in between sheets of paper passing through. The amount of waste toners we get through on the V180 is even more than we got on our V80.

[Versant2100User]

When you say cleaning blade, do you mean the IBT belt cleaner assembly or do you mean the cleaning blade on the 2nd BTR?

Would you recommend for us to switch to Silver Digital Matt? For silk stock we sometimes use ArcticSilk+ by Arctic Paper. Sometimes we still have problems with strikes/lines on Arctic Silk+ 115gsm with fairly new 2nd BTRs. My theory is that true coated silk paper just doesnt work with the versant. We also sometimes use Pro-Design by International Paper. It is much more durable than silk paper because it is not actually coated - While using it we dont have to worry too much about streaking. Another problem is that a lot of customers require silk paper instead of for example Pro Design, because it is often cheaper, coated and the most usual paper for magazines etc.

A huge problem for us it also that we bought a bunch of Colour Impressions Silk paper and other silk paper that was recommended by Xerox. We didnt know anything about the 2nd BTR issues when buying the paper and now we have a bunch of paper that we basically cant use. I really hope there will be a fix/update to the 2nd BTR. If nothing happens we must switch to a different machine that is able to handle silk paper.

[Futaura]

Same old, same old here. The last brand new BTR the tech installed before Christmas had to be swapped out again before tech left as it was streaking from the start. The replacement has been manageable until this week - Xerox tech coming Monday to replace. Over 200K which is a record on our V180. I know the cleaning blade is due for replacement too and our techs tend to always replace when they put a new 2nd BTR in.

We were told not not to use Xerox Colour Impressions Silk anymore and have moved to Silver Digital Matt instead, which is better, but not the magic paper that Xerox insist exists. Interesting that you mention 250gsm - IMHO, the paper thickness is a contributing factor, along with the smoothness. If you use something like Image Impact Plus 250gsm (aka Pro Design), it will mark a lot compared to Image Impact 250gsm which is not as smooth, despite both being uncoated.

[Versant2100User]

Do you know if there are any news regarding this? :)
We just got less than 3k clicks on our newest 2nd btr. We only used Xerox Colour Impression silk 250gr.

[Versant2100User]

Our Newest 2nd BTR just lasted less than 3K clicks!
We change 2nd BTRs depending on what type of job we do. Fx. if we do uncoated paper we normally use an old 2nd BTR, because the lines/strikes arent visible on that paper. We only used the newest 2nd BTR with Xerox Colour Impression Silk 250gr. After less than 3K clicks we noticed lines/strikes on the paper.
This pretty much feels like a scam by Xerox.

[tonychang718]

Hey!

So the new part number for the 2nd btr is 0859K7313 (old one is 0859K7312). You will see a 2.0 stamped on the metal guide plate on top. 

So the new ones last to about 150k-225k for me. They are much more stable than the old ones but they still need cleaning. Like the other members posted, there are a ton of other factors. The IBT cleaner also fails prematurely but I'm starting to believe that it has to do with the charge on the toner. As for me, I primarily run coated stock (99% of my prints). Its not just the coated stock it happens on, it also happens on the uncoated stock. I have done everything from taking out the cleaning blades (on both the ibt cleaner and the 2nd btr) and vacuuming out all toner but I still get it.

And you should be getting the streaks on the non-operator side (towards the back of the machine) correct?

There is some new script being tested that will apply to the 2nd btr (I'm guessing its to tweak the charge/voltage). Hopefully that will resolve the problem or make it better. Like you said previously, this is a HUGE engineering fault. The 2nd btr used to be a softer roller, and the backup roller used to be the harder one. Don't know why they switched them. I used to be able to use it WAY past life on my J75. 

Its a widespread issue so you're not the only one thats experiencing this. Hang in there, and happy holidays!

[Futaura]

Referring to the HFSI counter (clicks are half that, I think), our average is/was probably around 140K. Record is about 210K, IIRC, on our V80. This generally equated to a service call once a month. On the V180 it has been worse. When we first got it a year ago, the 2nd BTR had to be changed within a week. Last one was changed 2 weeks ago at 60K, but the new started playing up after a week. We tend to find job specifics are a factor - i.e. low or high coverage, or heavyweight stock. There is also a lot of variability in the quality of a new 2nd BTR. Xerox try to fit V80 units to ours whenever they can, because the V180 spec units do not last as long.

To start with the streaking is recoverable and the machine will clean it up when running a different stock, but sooner or later, the streaks get embedded on the roller and no amount of cleaning with isopropyl alcohol will keep the streaks away. For example, ran 2,500 sheets duplex 300gsm silk where it started marking within 500 sheets. Later, on same 2nd BTR, ran 3,000 sheets duplex 150gsm and 130gsm with no streaking whatsoever. All on the same paper brand.

I agree, it is a pain having to monitor jobs - usually we catch it in time, and have an idea what job it could happen on, or an early warning, but sometimes it can go unnoticed for 1-2,000 sheets, which is a big problem. Some of our engineers blame the paper, some not so much, but all acknowledge there is an issue with early 2nd BTR failures. My guess is Xerox know what the problem is, but either don't know the solution or know it is a design drawback that is not fixable, otherwise they surely would have fixed it by now or at least made some progress. They're not going to make a public statement admitting ta design fault for obvious reasons.

[Versant2100User]

Thanks for clearing this out!
I agree with you. We also had less problems on our V80 than on the V2100 regarding this issue. It's also true that the waste container also lasts shorter on the V2100.
I've made tests where I have lowered the amount of toner to be applied to the paper, but it seems to create other problems - regarding colours etc.
It's pretty funny that Xerox blames the paper, but also advises people to use their paper - Without mentioning that they have a massive problem with their 2nd BTR :)
We really need a fix for this, because the machine is too unreliable when it comes to streaks from the 2nd BTR. The machine doesn't check the prints for 2nd BTR streaks - So we are forced to quality check all the prints while printing.
How many clicks does your 2nd BTR usually last?

[Futaura]

Yeah, heard that one before! "Researching" has been ongoing for the past 4+ years, yet Xerox have not offered any improvement. In fact, it is worse on the newer machines (worse on our V180 than our old V80). Twice now, we've even had an engineer replace the 2nd BTR with a brand new unit, only for the first sheet out to have the problem, worse than the unit removed. Had to be replaced again. We've tried various revisions, but the problem remains. Our Xerox techs have also installed various scripts which are supposed to improve the issue, but haven't (latest update was on Monday).

I don't think the 2nd BTR is the root issue - there are other factors involved, and I don't mean paper. Like why is so much waste toner ending up in the 2nd BTR in the first place? We have to change the waste toner cartridge more frequently on our V180 than the V80. The last one was full after one week! Also, you can see the colour patches in some cases where the streaks are - these should be getting cleaned off the image transfer belt by the cleaning blade.

It is also wrong to say it only affects duplex jobs. It is more obvious, yes, but on single sided jobs you will also get the streaking on the reverse of the printed side. We get it on uncoated paper too, particularly on 250gsm+.

When it comes to coated paper, we keep following recommendations, to no avail, in this order over the years:

• OCE/Canon Top Coated Plus Silk
• Lumi Digital Silk
• Exceo Silk
• Claro Silk
• Novatech Digital Silk
• Xerox Colour Impressions Silk
• Silver Digital Matt
• Experia Digi Silk

We've seen the problem on all, to differing levels, but weight seems to be a factor also. 300gsm silk is a 2nd BTR killer for us. Xerox have even advised us not to use Xerox Colour Impressions Silk! I guess we all get told to use the expensive Xerox Colotech+ Coated Silk as that is ok, but I have seen it on that too, albeit to a much lesser extent (probably because it is almost like a smooth uncoated stock rather than silk).

[Versant2100User]

Hi gabiene,

Do you know if Xerox has made any statements regarding this issue?
We feel a bit betrayed by Xerox in this case. The specifications of the Versant printers doesn't say anything about the issues with coated paper. I'm also pretty sure the 2nd BTR's are rated to 300K clicks - But apparently some of them only reach 10K clicks.
It's 2019 and most printers on the market don't have this issue with coated paper. Not even a cheap printer for home use.